Seperation of Church & State

**RaiderWahoo0105** · January 10th, 2006, 04:06 PM

much appreciated...

I just want to be politically informed. I'm welcomed to criticism, otherwise if your'e never corrected, you'll just chug along thinking you're the greatest... Here's one of my favorite quotes...

"If you're not modest, you're probably overestimating yourself."
- Tim Cordes M.D.(made one B in medical school - University of Wisconsin-Madison, Undergraduate Valedictorian of Notre Dame)/(soon to add Ph.D)/blackbelt in jujitsu/avid water skiier/musical composer
- He happens to be blind.

**imported_biggamesjames** · January 10th, 2006, 04:12 PM

Nothing wrong with stating one's thoughts, emotions, intuition, etc...so long as one doesn't state it as a fact.

Let me rephrase my question....in general wahoo, what social injustices might you be referring to whether it be fact based or thought/emotion based? Just your personal opinion...i'm not here to flame anybody. Thoughts and feelings have a place in adult intellectual discourse in my opinion as does factual dialogue.

**RaiderWahoo0105** · January 10th, 2006, 04:21 PM

#1 The Patriot Act allowing President Bush essentially boundless freedoms into prying private conversations for the sake of National Security
#2 the Death Penalty - I am a bitter vengeful person by nature, and though I would like to see bad people disappear, sigh moral intuition kicks in and says, "Death Penalty Bad..."
#3 Tax breaks for the wealthy
#4 the lack of establishment of a "living wage", minimum sucks... and some actually try to support people off of this

there are others, but they escape me at the moment

**imported_biggamesjames** · January 10th, 2006, 04:29 PM

I strongly agree with #3.....I agree slightly with #4...Strongly disagree wtih #2...Neutral on #1 [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

**CoeburnCane** · January 10th, 2006, 04:33 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
-Are you implying that Catholics do not show the same reverence to "the holy trinity" that protestants do?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and I do not see how you got that out of what I said. I explained to RW0105 about what I meant in a few consequent posts.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
-I see, should they atleast be allowed to participate in government so as they don't end up being excluded or CONTROLLED by that very same gov't itself?

[/ QUOTE ]

Active participation is one thing...a highly welcome thing that is necessary. Attempting to actively control and manipulate government to serve their religious fatwas--not so much.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
-Wow...let me take this in, if thats not a radical statement I don't know what is! A call to exclude all faiths from freedom of speech!

[/ QUOTE ]

No--once again--you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I feel that they're in the business of spreading faith and saving people--not running the government. Vote your conscience and your faith, but don't actively try to control legislature to fit a religious agenda.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
-So are you saying they are not really men of faith but just pretend to be for their own political motives? Do you have any supporting facts on that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tell you my facts, but I don't want to suffer another stroke...[img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Seriously...you can tell from their actions and their words what they're trying to do. When do you hear about Dobson, Robertson, or Falwell in the news? Not when they've helped save so many souls and bring them to knowing Christ, but when they're speaking out against something they see as diabolical and evil because it's an inconvenience to them. Why should we have to hear Dobson or Falwell call Spongebob or Tinky-Winky homosexual? Who cares? It seems to me that if you want to lead people to faith in Jesus, you'd do it by acceptance, not by perpetual chastisement.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
-Just curious which affairs you might be referring to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any government sanctioned affairs. I don't want to hear what my local pastor says about the price of oil by the barrel. I don't want to hear Robertson give his thoughts on how to solve the problem of stopping the AIDS epidemic. Stick to saving souls. Let the "secular leaders" take care of the secular world, and concentrate on strengthening your churches (not politically, but spiritually) and the rest will take care of itself. Jehovah Jireh--go look that up and see what it means.

**RaiderWahoo0105** · January 10th, 2006, 04:39 PM

as the day... haha in just a day... has progressed, I'm getting stronger intuitions that church and state should be greatly seperated

like I said, the religious folk should work on influencing how people lead their lives in a moral fashion, rather than controlling what they do in the voting both...

isn't the point of christianity recruiting people to the flock and teaching them good graces such that they WILLINGLY accept God, rather than force feeding them an opinion...

Haha this would be good material one day for the social contract theory of justifying political procedure

**RaiderWahoo0105** · January 10th, 2006, 04:45 PM

All this being said...
My girlfriend is a hard core Democrat (again I'm a swing voter). I do mean hard core... Like she would punch Bush in the face if she had the chance.

Sometimes she just says things that get under my skin haha. Ever try to have a political discussion with a liberal girl of strong conviction... ouch... haha. I'll build up my smarts by reading/researching and chatting with you guys and other people first before I take her on.

**Monkeyhead** · January 10th, 2006, 04:50 PM

Run Run as fast as you can from her. Next thing you know she will be taking a knife to your manhood.

**RaiderWahoo0105** · January 10th, 2006, 04:53 PM

At Boys State I had a guy on my hall tell me about his best friend's parents.
The Father was something like A chairman of the DNP or another position of high authority.
The Mother was of equally high stature in the GOP.

They never discussed politics, but the family gets along just fine... I may have to take some cues from these people come election time, because even if I vote left, I probably won't vote left for the same reasons she does.

**imported_biggamesjames** · January 10th, 2006, 07:52 PM

"Active participation is one thing...a highly welcome thing that is necessary. Attempting to actively control and manipulate government to serve their religious fatwas--not so much."
-Last sentence could very well be used to describe many secularists(insert "non" before religious)

"Seriously...you can tell from their actions and their words what they're trying to do. When do you hear about Dobson, Robertson, or Falwell in the news? Not when they've helped save so many souls and bring them to knowing Christ, but when they're speaking out against something they see as diabolical and evil because it's an inconvenience to them. Why should we have to hear Dobson or Falwell call Spongebob or Tinky-Winky homosexual? Who cares? It seems to me that if you want to lead people to faith in Jesus, you'd do it by acceptance, not by perpetual chastisement."
-I agree with you to a point and will not condone all of their actions but whose to say they are do such things for any kind of political gain? While I totally disagree with Robertson claiming to understand God's actions for natural disasters or the stroke of Israel's president I actually don't see how he could gain anything from that politically...and honestly speaking I can't say he is wrong either because I really do not know. It would be outrageous for anyone to claim as fact that they do know about any kind of divine intervention or dispute (as fact)any such claim like Robertson made as being invalid. I may be wrong but I believe Robertson made a statement based on his theological "interpretation" of the Bible and didn't make any claim that what he said was "The Gospel." He has a different way of communicating his beliefs and I think he sincerely believes what he says no matter how off base it may seem and in the case of Sharon I'm sure their are biblical passages that support his claim...but once again I do not condone what he said at all. Just saying there are several passages in the Bible which make reference to the "Holy Land"(Israel) and negative results to those who attempt to defy it or it Sharon's case allow others(non-Jews) to stake claim to it.

"Any government sanctioned affairs. I don't want to hear what my local pastor says about the price of oil by the barrel. I don't want to hear Robertson give his thoughts on how to solve the problem of stopping the AIDS epidemic. Stick to saving souls. Let the "secular leaders" take care of the secular world, and concentrate on strengthening your churches (not politically, but spiritually) and the rest will take care of itself. Jehovah Jireh--go look that up and see what it means."
-Well I think you just told me what it means in the sentence prior to it.
Personally I see more secularists who want any reference or practice of religion banned(more specifically Christianity)than I see of any religious leaders trying to impose a state religion on government. The backlash to this secularist influence are citizens of faith considering such religious/moral based issues more important than before because of the religiously eroding affect over time that secularists are having on gov't policy. In my opinion people of faith have just as much right to vote their conscience NO MATTER WHAT THE ISSUE as do secularists.
One follow up question to what you just stated...do you agree that Pope John Paul II had a right to his actions when he attempted to influence then VA Governor Doug Wilder to grant clemency to Grundy native Roger Keith Coleman in '92?